Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze
Tonya 00:00:10 Welcome to world Footprints. I’m Tonya Fitzpatrick.
Ian 00:00:14 And I’m Ian Fitzpatrick. Today we’re coming to you from the historic town of Pulaski, Tennessee, the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan. Pulaski has a complex legacy, but today, we’re here to share a different story. One of resilience, courage and legacy. Our guest is Miss Vivien Leigh Battle Sims, an extraordinary woman who has dedicated her life to education, public service and breaking down racial barriers.
Tonya 00:00:44 And as we discovered in our research, Miss Sims is a distant cousin of Ian’s, making this conversation all the more meaningful. So this is more than just an interview. It’s a family reunion of sorts and a celebration of an inspiring life.
Ian 00:01:02 Ian and Tanya Fitzpatrick. Coming to you from Giles County, Tennessee. We’re in Pulaski, Tennessee.
Vivian 00:01:12 For being the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan.
Ian 00:01:14 Our conversation with Miss Sims takes us on a journey through American history, resilience, and family legacy. As an educator, community leader, and advocate, Miss Sims has dedicated her life to uncovering stories that often go untold, including a powerful tribute to black Union soldiers who fought in the Civil War.
Ian 00:01:37 Here in Pulaski, where the soldier’s stories were long forgotten, Miss Simms has breathed life back into their legacy with her passionate commitment.
Tonya 00:01:47 When did you discover the US Colored Troops? Because did you know of the US Colored Troops even as a teacher? And was that something you were teaching.
Vivian 00:02:01 Have you all ever. Did you all learn about the United States College?
Tonya 00:02:06 No. No, no.
Vivian 00:02:07 Did you know they existed? No. No. Me too. Okay. Me too. The only thing I knew about. About the Civil War. The North fought the South. The North won. And the slave trade. And that’s all they taught me in the city schools of New York City. That’s all. Okay. And I was 87 years old when I found out it existed. Oh. In the last year I was living in Pulaski. I had, I had already covered all the teaching I was going to do. Okay. Because I was in my 80s when I found out. And how I found out about it was so unique because the antebellum house I told you that I have.
Vivian 00:02:59 I wanted to put it on, on the, on in the, in the National Register of Historic Places. My husband wouldn’t do it. When I married him he had all the houses that I should have and he had that beautiful two storey beautiful two storey house just over a hundred years old now going away to 200 years. And I didn’t know anything about the history of the last year, other than the fact that that it was a birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan. I didn’t I didn’t know, I didn’t know a. Well, what what the uniform looked like. Was the United States Colored Troops. Oh, oh. Well the white I didn’t, I don’t know, I didn’t know that uniform was great and the other one was blue. I didn’t I, I, I didn’t I knew nothing about war. Let’s put it that way. Okay. Well, I was going to have a party. And celebrate the moment that Wilkinson and Martin Sims have a. On on the national registry. Yes.
Vivian 00:04:26 Okay. Yeah. And I found that they were going to have a ceremony or opening of a house in a in, in Elkton, which is about 30, 40 miles from here. And And, and someone said they were going to have someone being from the Civil War who would be attending that, that, that event. So I get in my car and I drive on down the hill. I see some white men dressed in gray. Then I see some black men dressed in blue. Yeah. I said. I don’t know who is who. Okay. I don’t know which ones are or what other than the ones white and one’s black. So I went over to the black soldiers and asked them if they said, well, this is a, this is a what we were doing to the Civil War, but the black soldiers were doing the Civil War. I said, I didn’t even know y’all had black soldiers in the Civil War. And I said yes. And they, they had an organization that had already built up a where men could join and then act like soldiers and act.
Vivian 00:05:56 The soldier. I even bought a picture about this week. That big of the black soldiers fighting during the Civil War. During the Civil War. At Christmas time, it was Christmas time and they beat the heck of. A white soldier. That’s because I was an art teacher and I said, you know I wasn’t running around buying art. Okay. And he wanted $150 for the picture. I glad to got my checkbook out honey. Yeah. Okay. Give me that picture and I gotta hang it up at home. Okay. Because most people don’t know that black soldiers ever fought in the Civil War. Well, anyway. Well, then they gave me a little brochure that was from a school year. And mother called a place called Murfreesboro, where they have. A place where they have a lot of things from the Civil War. And they gave me the brochure. That I still don’t know that, that the black men for in the Civil War as you know pictured.
Tonya 00:07:20 As Union soldiers. I just want to clarify as Union soldiers not the for the Confederacy.
Tonya 00:07:26 That’s right.
Vivian 00:07:28 And so I went to bed at night and I started reading the book and I said, they told me how many people, how many men joined the Civil War. Black men joined the Civil War, how long the Civil War lasted, where they fought, how they fought. And when I read it, I couldn’t go back to sleep. I couldn’t hardly read each other all over the south there. They had 2400 men on a hill right above where I live. And they joined they, they joined the Army. In my, in the, in the house. Should I have the, at the bottom of the hill. Okay. That was 2400. 20,000 joined the Union Army in the state of Tennessee. And over 200,000 joined in the South. And I don’t know, there’s just no way no black person. Well anyway I couldn’t sleep, I said I can’t believe it, I said I can’t sleep, I said how can I have lived to be 87 years old and not ever heard of anything like this? How could it happen? Surely.
Vivian 00:08:54 My education in New York didn’t help me. You just said it was a war. And. Anyone and and a slave were free, and that’s all. That’s all they said.
Ian 00:09:04 For Miss Sims, learning about the contributions of black soldiers during the Civil War was a revelation. It sparked a deep sense of purpose to ensure their legacy was honored and remembered. And in a place like Pulaski, where these stories were largely untold, her mission took on even greater significance for Tanya and me. This piece of family history makes her story even more powerful.
Vivian 00:09:30 I struggled over this issue. I called it a buddy organization, and I went to all the black churches in town and place, any place where I could find some good, decent black men who were married and had children and whatnot, who would know how to how to deal with me with boy, because that problem was they didn’t have any phone.
Tonya 00:09:54 Right.
Vivian 00:09:55 Only month. And the most couldn’t handle it. And they had no man to really look up to.
Vivian 00:10:04 Or to guard or to help her. So I said hey I saw my own buddy program which I did, I went to all the churches and asked me, I said would anybody, anybody who’s retired or somebody has some time off for lunch, could come and have lunch with a boy and talk to a boy and help a boy. Motivated or mostly motivated? Let him know somebody loves him. It was a big success. You’d be surprised how many black men children. To do this. Okay. And what I would do is after I had talked to the men to tell them what they could do and couldn’t do in school. Okay. And tell him what the motivation was. And tell them what I was looking for and what the boys needed. That I would introduce them to the boy and to the first. I get the name of. I get to get the name. The name of the man who was coming to get that. Get that person. Make sure that the parent goes along with that person, and that’s somebody that has some issues with me.
Vivian 00:11:20 But anyway. That was the best friend. That was the best program that I invented. I hadn’t read it 2 or 3 years. That was the best one because I told him he come at least twice a month. At least you if you want to come 3 or 4 times, that’s fine. You want to come over? I said, and you gotta buy your own lunch. I don’t have any extra money. They loved the men, loved it. And the boy I mean when they, when if they had a man to walk with them across the cafeteria to get their lunch and to go in the empty room, and they would sit down and the man would talk to find out about his school, find out about how he behaved, find out about everything that he needed and give him advice. The teacher was clear about it. I didn’t see any more. I mean I was in trouble because they didn’t want me to report to, to, to that man today. I have fallen in love with that.
Vivian 00:12:27 They did not behave it. Yes sir.
Ian 00:12:30 So your mentorship program in terms of how it changed outcomes for the participants, the students talk about the changes you saw in these young black men as a result of your program. Oh.
Vivian 00:12:54 Every one of them was positive. When they took the T test that’s the state test. It took the T cactus. The schools went from 20 to 30 to 30 up to 90, 100, 110, 120 because they were capable. But they weren’t motivated. Once they got motivated they were every bit as good as anybody else in that school. Got motivated. But the problem was I was in my late 60s and I was already old lady.
Ian 00:13:28 Your mentorship program sounds incredible. It seems like it made a huge difference for these young men.
Tonya 00:13:35 Miss Simms work in education and mentorship left a profound impact on her students. We have seen firsthand how she dedicated herself to fostering confidence and pride within the community. Her vision for the statue came from the same place of hope. A wish to see young people know their own strength and connect with a rich heritage of courage and resilience.
Tonya 00:14:02 Miss Sims, the statue has such a powerful design. I love the the young boy looking up to the soldier. It’s incredibly moving and powerful. What inspired that choice?
Vivian 00:14:18 I wanted a little boy on my statue because I was trying to impress upon the children of black people that they are just as important, they’re just as talented. They’re just as knowledgeable as every other child born in the United States of America. Because I had experienced black boys not living up to expectations. I didn’t have that problem with girls. Not as much. but, but he came to the cactus as a state to. I did have, if I was lucky I might have one boy. Who make the same 50%, 50% now. But most anyway 20th which is a very percentile. The 10th which is ten. And then when I looked at the test scores, I mean when I looked up their IQ score. They were no better. And now I said what the heck is happening here. I’ll look at my records and find out what the problem was.
Vivian 00:15:39 No problem. And the vast majority of black boys do not have a father.
Tonya 00:15:49 And I read that the.
Vivian 00:15:50 Man living at home who cares about it. Yes.
Tonya 00:15:53 And I read that you wanted a young boy as part of the statue. That’s what to to.
Vivian 00:16:02 And that’s what we got.
Tonya 00:16:03 Reflect the the warrior, the legacy of warriors in the black community. And more so than the legacy of slavery. You wanted to show a different image, right? With the statue, right?
Vivian 00:16:19 Well. What happened? That. That was my goal. Okay. I didn’t just want. A black man with a costume or with a with a gun in his hand getting ready to shoot somebody. No, no, no shooting here and back that I talked to. I told the people, the people in the committee, I said. When I was talking to the woman who was going to do the statute, I said, I really would prefer not to have a gun. And 3 or 4 men, black men, were on the committee and said, oh yes, we do too.
Vivian 00:17:00 We better have a gun there. So I have a gun on his shoulder. Okay. You say you said a little one. Well, anyway. So she put a statue and she has she has a boy look it up. And the members of the United States heard the truth. He’s got his hand on the boy’s shoulder, talking to them like a father would talk to a child, you know? I didn’t pick a girl because I didn’t have any issue with the education of the girls. Would get it because the mother seemed to be doing alright. It’s the boys, and they’re not getting a good education.
Ian 00:17:45 Miss Sims statute has a deeply symbolic design that’s captured the hearts of many here in Pulaski. Her decision to include a young boy, Tanya, and I learned, was intentional. She wanted future generations to see their place in history as one of strength and heroism. It’s a vision that’s not only reshaped this town’s legacy, but has also become a beacon of hope for the community.
Vivian 00:18:12 Now, let me tell you, it has not been easy for me to be in Johnstown.
Vivian 00:18:18 I have had to call to if. I had called it, I had to call the the the NAACP. To call in the troops from Washington and Atlanta because of some things they’ve done, was so deeply prejudice. That I refused to accept for example. They made me when I was 50. In my 50s, they made me just the assistant principal of a of a elementary school. I was the first black woman to be the assistant principal. This is a big elementary school in the city, but a couple where I know the principal man didn’t want a black female. To be his assistant. Regardless of how hard I worked and what I did. And then I would tell him the things that he was doing. It was. It was absolutely hard. Like. He’d take a group of kids, let’s say, in, in using an English language book. He would write out in the center. And this is the other I mean, this is like kindergarten to, to to to the fourth grade.
Vivian 00:19:47 What is all hope at hand, right? I don’t know how the kids read because kids don’t read. No, the kids didn’t read that kind of writing yet. Okay. He’d make up his own tests. Give them to the. Give them to the first grader. Oh. Those kids? No kindergarten. So he grabs the test all by himself. Then he tells you where students are going to be under in the. Because they had about 600 kids. Therefore. Therefore, it was 600 kids. You going to have from top to the bottom level. Okay. He always go to white students at the top level and a bottom level. Always at all black. So. I told him this is not right. This is not fair. Number one, you shouldn’t be writing it right now for the test anyway. Number two, you should be graded if you wrote it up. I said it. Number three, I said it should be some children in every level. Integrate. The top one half shouldn’t have all white.
Vivian 00:21:05 And the bottom one half all black. That makes it okay. Well guess what? We called it the NAACP and straightened it up. That’s right. I did that with my husband. My husband was. Was assistant director of the tech school. They will go to open up a job as the director of the high school. Okay. This this is the part where where they teach building trades and things like that. Because he knew that he was, he was that was, that was his thing. Okay. Well. Two hands and 2 or 3 other men also applied for the job. Two of them white. They were they were in they were in them. They were, they were in working with wood and stuff like that. And what man was working in a daycare center? They picked a man working in a big basic care center for the job when he was the best qualified. And you know what I. When I can tell you who the person that they picked, they said well you know what happened.
Vivian 00:22:31 They picked the man that had the least qualifications. So not only was your husband hurt but the other two white men were true because they had better qualifications.
Speaker 6 00:22:44 As a boy, this is silicon.
Tonya 00:22:46 Oh Miss Vivian. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Really thank you for for standing up for for people, for being a voice for the voiceless. Thank you.
Vivian 00:22:59 If you stand up for your rights, you’d be surprised how many other people were saying with you, you know.
Speaker 7 00:23:04 Amen.
Ian 00:23:06 Miss Sims has given us all a reason to feel proud and to stand for something greater. Her story shows us how one person can make a difference, not just in her community, but in the way we remember history. And for Tanya and me, this journey has been deeply personal. Knowing that Miss Sims is part of our family. It’s a legacy of resilience and courage that we’re honored to share with all of you.
Tonya 00:23:34 In learning about Miss Sims work and discovering that she’s family makes this journey incredibly special. She really is an inspiration.
Ian 00:23:44 Absolutely. Miss Sims. Thank you for sharing your story and for honoring black soldiers and your community in such a meaningful way. We’re grateful to call you family and honor to share your legacy with our listeners.
Tonya 00:23:59 Thank you, Miss Sims. You’ve done so much for this world. And you. You’re leaving a legacy that will live on for generations. So in reflection, one of the things that surprised me. Well, first of all, you know that I spent a large part of my childhood in a Mid-Michigan town that was the headquarters, I guess, for the KKK in Michigan. and so what when I learned about Miss Sims and the statue and where the statue is placed, I personally felt inspired and, encouraged to come and meet this wonderful woman. And then, especially after we learned that she’s a relative. But what also has occurred to me is how Pulaski is trying to turn the page and walk away from its dark history. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the City Council voted 100% in favor of placing this memorial.
Ian 00:25:06 This statute, kind of sits, as you enter a town. It sits in a pretty nondescript commercial area, but it’s really a beacon to people in the region. And what was nice to see is that while we were there, a family came actually, a white family came to specifically visit the statue. And when they discovered that Miss Simms was there, they were excited. And it’s great to see how this Statue is really building bridges between communities that have been historically divided on racial lines. And so it does matter. These symbols do matter. And it’s not just, there to memorialize history that people don’t want to talk about. It’s really there to start conversations and to really get us to see each other in ourselves. Yeah.
Tonya 00:26:07 And, you know, and I think I mentioned a little bit earlier about the young boy, first, you know, she said, a girl having a boy and a girl, the girl would have been $8,000 more. And she paid for this, out of her own money.
Tonya 00:26:23 But she was very intentional about having a young boy as part of the statue. And also having the soldier, not, carry a a gun. Now, he he had to because that was a compromise that the city council made with Miss Simms. But if you look at the face of this young boy looking up to the black soldier, the black Union soldier with, you know, admiration, it’s almost like a father figure. And that was the intentionality that, you know, Miss Sims had with recreating this statue. And I think it’s incredibly, incredibly powerful.
Ian 00:27:09 As we listen to Miss Sims, it’s hard not to feel deeply moved by the resilience that has shaped her life. She’s faced so many challenges, yet she turned each one of them into an opportunity for growth, dear not just for herself, but for her community. The statue she commissioned, Resurrection of Valor, stands as a testament to the courage of those who fought for freedom, despite a history that tried to silence their stories.
Tonya 00:27:38 Absolutely. And you know the name Resurrection of Valor is truly fitting.
Tonya 00:27:43 The statue is not just a memorial, it’s a revival of the forgotten bravery of black Union soldiers who fought for the promise of a better future. And in Pulaski, a town with a legacy tied to racial injustice. Certainly the KKK, Miss Sims has reclaimed space for those unsung heroes. The statue represents their valor, resurrected and honored for everyone to see, and it’s a reminder that history belongs to everyone and that these men deserve their rightful place in it.
Ian 00:28:19 Indeed, being part of this journey with Miss Sims has shown us how one person’s determination can change how we look at history. Naming the statue Resurrection of valor speaks not only to the courage of these soldiers, but also to miss Sims relentless spirit in bringing their story back to life. In a town that once symbolized division, she’s created a symbol of hope and pride. This memorial reminds us that true valor doesn’t fade. It may be buried by time, but it’s never forgotten.
Tonya 00:28:57 No. And we’ll make sure of that. And for us, resurrection of valor is more than a statue.
Tonya 00:29:04 It’s a message to future generations that their legacy is one of strength, courage, and unbreakable spirit. And for Ian, for you, babe, discovering that Miss Sims is family ties us even closer to this mission of resurrecting untold stories. It’s what we do. It’s what we’ve always done at World Footprints, and it’s such a pleasure to share Miss Sims story and were grateful for the legacy she’s leaving behind, and certainly for you giving us a space to share it.
Speaker 8 00:29:40 This World Footprints podcast with Ian and Tonya Fitzpatrick is a production of World Footprints LLC, Silver Spring, Maryland. The multi-award winning podcast is available on World footprints.com and on audio platforms worldwide including iHeartRadio, Pandora, Alexa, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Public Radio Exchange and many more. Connect with the world with a deeper understanding through powerful stories. Visit World footprints.com to enjoy more podcasts and compelling articles from international travel writers, and be sure to subscribe to the newsletter and receive a free gift. World footprints as a trademark of World Footprints LLC, which retains all rights to the World Footprints portfolio, including World footprints.com and this podcast.
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